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Post by Lysander on Dec 10, 2009 2:12:30 GMT -5
Tala won, 5-1. Krl judged, and can verify
Things I expected: Tala pretyping every block/counter he made. Which is ultimately how he ended up winning so badly. Technically pretyping makes the posts invalid, but I didn't want to hear him try and troll for an hour, and then watch him RP cry for another.
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Post by Ukyo on Dec 10, 2009 2:21:23 GMT -5
again pretyping isn't invalid. its "frowned upon" is what ive always heard. but every one does it to an extent. some just make it more obvious than others. just outsmart him if he's pretyping or dont fight him. adding to rankings. at least you own up to a loss. <3
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Post by Krl on Dec 10, 2009 2:23:40 GMT -5
hydroman: .the right and left hands then moved down, his right and left palms to the face of lysander again, instead to his hand to pause, a knee to his face.
If things like that are valid, Tala won fair and square.
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Post by Lysander on Dec 10, 2009 2:24:30 GMT -5
A loss is a loss. I could make excuses, decent enough excuses. Like the fact that my hands were already tired from three T2A fights with Lance, where I finally took the title from him in the last one.
Or his pre-typing ways.
But in the end, I told him if he would T2A me again, I'd S20 him, if I won the T2A. I won the T2A, so I had to keep my word. He beat me, not so sure about fair and square, but he beat me nonetheless.
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Post by Ukyo on Dec 10, 2009 2:26:17 GMT -5
hydroman: .the right and left hands then moved down, his right and left palms to the face of lysander again, instead to his hand to pause, a knee to his face. If things like that are valid, Tala won fair and square. since he had already attacked. that line would be void. but if he didnt attack in most of his counters then its legit. i'll check back up on this tomorrow night guys.
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Post by Lysander on Dec 10, 2009 2:31:25 GMT -5
Well, everyone of his counters looked EXACTLY like that. I figured I'd let him have them, since no one brought it up during the fight. But, technically speaking, his only hits on me were counters. He countered all five of my hits, and his counters all looked just like that. Wouldn't it turn around to be 5-0 my win if his counters were invalid?
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Bice
Champion
The Connoisseur of Speed-Fighting.
Posts: 312
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Post by Bice on Mar 22, 2012 21:52:35 GMT -5
This is immensely belated, and now it's going to turn out like I'm on a mean streak of making examples of Tala's poor fighting career. In Lysander's defense, if Tala per se already initiated an attack in a post, he can't suddenly halt it and create another with a staple of five words at the end. That has always been recorded invalid. Two primary actions can NEVER take place in a post - the exceptions have been countering and AAA, but they're still conditional.
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Post by Alex on Apr 9, 2012 8:09:08 GMT -5
On the topic of pre-typing:
I would be utterly amazed if there's any T2er who does not pre-type at all.
If you waited until your opponent spits out an attack, read the attack and then began to construct the defense/counter, then unless you're ridiculously faster than your opponent, you're going to be hit. Hard.
Once your opponent releases the attack, they are already writing the connect. And by the time you actually see the attack posted, they're probably a few words into the connect already. So unless you're already typing...
I think if we're honest, every single one of us pre-types.
The question then becomes to what extent, and to what end.
If you're always pre-typing, "moved back from Bob, diverting his attack and countering with a backfist to the bridge of his nose" - in other words, an entire counter that is generic has no reference to your opponent's actual attack, then it sucks.
But if you're pre-typing, and your counter indicates that you comprehended your opponents attack and responded accordingly, then well.. What can you do.
When I used to T2, I never stopped typing. My attacks flowed into connects - or counters, or defenses - and the dance didn't end until the fight did.
Cheers, -Alex / Dalmuros
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Post by Wesley of TCM on Apr 9, 2012 12:10:35 GMT -5
I agree with Dalmuros to an extent. If by pre-typing, you mean copying and pasting, then I have to agree that most T2 fighters are guilty to some extent. I remember having a discussion with someone about this a few years ago. Our conversation was sparked by the idea of someone being able to read their opponent's thoughts and intercept their intentions with pre-typed counter attacks.
First of all, it is illegal in T2 for the attacker to post a pre-typed connection during his first action in a speed fight. That simply wouldn't be fair. You're already attacking the defender when he or she is offguard, so what is the point of cheating by copying and pasting pre-written attacks? It ruins the fun of T2 and makes many decent fighters very unhappy. So pre-typing your attacks in T2 is illegal, and should be with good reason. Defending in T2 is a different story.
Since the rules of T2 weren't very specific about using pre-typed actions, it was argued that a defender has the right to post a pre-typed defense or counter attack in a speed fight, but only during his or her first action. The reason that argument was made is because we decided that it actually was possible for fighters to read each other's thoughts and intercept their intentions in a speed fight. We decided that if it could be done, it should be done, and so it became allowed. Only the defender can paste a pre-typed action, and it has to be a defensive action or counter attack. It can only happen once, at the very beginning of the fight.
Any and all other types of pre-typed actions were regarded as illegal and unfair in T2 battles, so that mentality sort of became an unwritten tradition amongst T2 fighters over the years. Today, copying and pasting is still considered to be a form of cheating and dishonor amongst T2 fighters. However, some people do still acknowledge the "defender's rule", which I think is what Dalmuros is refering to.
The "defender's rule" works like this, pretty much. Every fighter has the ability to intercept their opponent's very first offensive action with a defensive counter attack. That skill will vary from player to player, and it is regarded as a high level skill amongst T2 fighters. Those who are at the highest level can be regarded as "interceptive" because they can read their opponent's minds and account for their actions beforehand. The only trick is, you have to be precise. If you paste a pre-typed defense which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the offensive player's attack, then your pre-typed action counts for nothing and will be voided entirely.
Bad C/Ping Example: Player1: **sends his left fist in an uppercut to Player2's chin** Player2: **catches his leg in both hands before he can kick**
Good C/Ping Example: Player1: **sends his left fist in an uppercut to Player2's chin** Player2: **sees Player1's fist coming and suddenly steps back**
In the above scenerio, Player1 is the attacker and Player2 is the defender, therefore Player2 has the option to paste a pre-typed defensive action to Player1's first attack. However, during the first example we see that Player2 does a horrible job of reading Player1's actions, because the pre-typed action that Player2 posted has absolutely nothing at all to do with Player1's attack. That is an example of a poor C/P defense, and pretty much every T2 fighter in the world would agree that Player2's actions would be voided.
The second example is a better one in which Player1 throws the same type of first attack, only this time Player2 does the right thing by C/Ping a proper defense which could be considered "legal" in a T2 fight. During the second example, Player2 reads his opponent's mind and intercepts his intentions accordingly. We know this to be true because Player1's name is mentioned during Player2's C/P defense, and also because Player2 mentions that it's Player1's "fist" that he is dodging. So by mentioning the attacker's name, along with the proper attack, is a good sign that Player2 did in fact read his opponent's mind and intercept with a proper pre-typed counter defense.
That's an extremely high level of skill, though, and not many T2 fighters actually develop that kind of skill level, so over the years that whole C/Ping argument got thrown out the window. It really is possible to read your opponent's thoughts, however, so it should still be allowed. I know that when I used to fight using T2, there were times when I was personally able to defeat T2 fighters who were ten times faster than me simply because I had that high level ability. Even though I was much slower at typing, I was good at reading my opponents and knew how to respond to their attacks with slightly pre-typed defensive actions. If you're very good at T2, you really don't have to be fast at all. You'll be able to out-think your opponent in just about any situation.
That, my friend, is very hard to do...
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Post by Wesley of TCM on Apr 9, 2012 12:29:25 GMT -5
It's funny that Dalmuros actually brought that up, because that's what I was known for. If you asked anybody what they thought was my greatest accomplishment in speed fighting, they would tell you, it was my ability to "intercept", and to just "out-think" my opponents. That's why I was able to win against much larger opponents, despite being shorter or smaller. That's why I was able to defeat much faster opponents, despite being slower. And that's why I was able to defeat much more powerful opponents, despite being weaker or less powerful... I used my brain.
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Post by Alex on Apr 9, 2012 16:29:09 GMT -5
I should probably qualify my previous remark. By pre-typing, I in no way meant 'copying and pasting'.
Never in my life have I ever copied and pasted anything during a T2. The idea is utterly foreign to me.
When I wrote pre-type, it was to say I would already be typing previous to my opponent's attack. Not necessarily preparing a defense or counter, but at no point would I ever stop typing during a match.
Regards, -Alex
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Post by Wesley of TCM on Apr 9, 2012 23:32:30 GMT -5
Well, that's a little bit different then, but the concept is still the same. Instead of copying and pasting your first defensive action, you just aim at being a faster fighter by typing your defensive actions before your opponent even finishes typing his attack. You're relying on speed, but you're also still intercepting what the opponent is thinking. I couldn't rely on speed, so I had to find another way to be faster than my opponent. I used deception.
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Post by Alex on Apr 10, 2012 0:13:40 GMT -5
I do try and continuously type - as once you're in the flow, stopping and starting is quite a drag.
I do try however to always reference in some way my opponent's attack, and make my defense or counter relevant.
Wesley, where can I meet up with you to T2? I'm in Australia so the times might not always meet up, but I'm sure we can figure something out.
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Post by Wesley of TCM on Apr 10, 2012 1:13:44 GMT -5
I haven't practiced T2 in many, many years. The last methods I used when I stopped fighting were T1 and I guess what you would now call ART.
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Post by Alex on Apr 10, 2012 1:31:00 GMT -5
That's alright. I am a has been. It's been ... 7-9 years since I've T2'd. Something along those lines. I'm not concerned whether I win or lose. I just want to have some fun with it.
Perhaps Prettz, or some of the others here will be interested?
He seems to be held in some renown on the forum.
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